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LatinAce
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Paul Magno
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Karma: 37 |  | Re: Money May vs Kenny
« Reply #1 on May 21, 2009, 10:31pm » | |
May 21, 2009, 9:44pm, LatinAce wrote:
Good stuff....compelling interview and once again the Mayweather Double Standard is on full display...I wonder why guys like Kenny don't hold Mosley's and Cotto's feet to the fire for not fighting Williams, Pacquiao for not fighting Marquez in a part III, etc...Guys like Kenny would lead the public to believe that Mayweather is the only one who carefully selects their opposition...
It's obvious that PBF needs a tune up and a fight with JMM, even though he's the Lightweight champ, is a damn fine tune up...
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LatinAce
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Karma: 5 | | Re: Money May vs Kenny
« Reply #2 on May 21, 2009, 10:51pm » | |
just a great post id like to share.
Here's how I see it:
Floyd sees himself as the greatest fighter ever to walk the earth. Fine, that's his right to think that (even though that assertion is patently insane).
But if that claim is to have credibility -- if he is to be even in the same neighborhood as Robinson, Armstrong, Greb, Monzon, Ali, Louis, etc. -- he has to do extra special things against extra special opponents because today's fighters will never, ever have the sheer numbers in terms of fights and/or frequent fights against high quality foes. Of today's fighters, Pacquiao has come the closest to walking that gauntlet time and again against men who were either his size or naturally bigger. And more times than not he not only defeated them but looked spectacular in doing so (the second and third Morales fights, David Diaz in his debut at lightweight, Oscar de la Hoya in his debut at welterweight, Ricky Hatton in his debut in junior welterweight). When I wrote the "Pacquiao's Greatest Hits" columns, I had to whittle down his great performances down to 10 while I had trouble finding 10 for Hatton.
As for Floyd, his last really big risk fight was the rematch with Jose Luis Castillo because Castillo did more than enough to beat Floyd in the first fight. That fight scared him witless and it probably was his "fear of God" fight. Once he beat Castillo in the rematch (and he did win that fight) he started picking and choosing his opponents instead of continuing his early policy of taking on the very best in the weight class and blowing them out (Hernandez, Manfredy). That's why people are so sour on him -- because he could have fought and beaten Margarito (who was a monster at the time he started publicly challenging Mayweather), Shane Mosley, Paul Williams, Hatton when he was closer to his peak, etc. It wasn't as if Mayweather didn't have a talent-rich division at his disposal -- he did. But unlike the true greats he didn't take advantage of it.
While Mayweather was an immense talent -- and he may still be, who knows? -- he could have been so much greater. Fans hold fighters of his ilk to a much higher standard while Floyd only holds himself to one standard -- the "0" at the end of his record. Sorry Floyd, but that just isn't a high enough bar to vault over the entirety of boxing history -- and it never will be.
Lee
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Paul Magno
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Karma: 37 | | Re: Money May vs Kenny
« Reply #3 on May 22, 2009, 12:31am » | |
Was that post from the Pac-land message board?
Listen...First, it doesn't matter what a fighter SAYS about himself. That shouldn't even be taken into consideration since the writer of that post is insinuating that Mayweather be held to a higher standard based on what PBF SAYS about himself...
And please dissect this post as 100% proof of the double standard in effect:
Substitute the name "Juan Manuel Marquez" for "Jose Luis Castillo"...and you are completely describing Pacquiao's current run. Because if Pacquiao was concerned about "taking on the very best" he would've fought Nate Campbell at 135- Not David Diaz, Paul Williams at 147- not a ghostly ODH and Timothy Bradley at 140- Not the one-dimensional Hatton. Hell, he could've fought JMM at 130, 135 or 140...He just opted for the bigger payday against the easier opponent. But where's all the crying and hand-wringing about Pacquiao ducking the very best?
Take that baloney to some hack at Sports Illustrated who wouldn't know a left hook from a meat hook or, better yet, Manny-Pacquiao.com
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punchdrunk
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Karma: 6 | | Re: Money May vs Kenny
« Reply #4 on May 22, 2009, 1:49am » | |
May 22, 2009, 12:31am, Paul Magno wrote:Was that post from the Pac-land message board?
Listen...First, it doesn't matter what a fighter SAYS about himself. That shouldn't even be taken into consideration since the writer of that post is insinuating that Mayweather be held to a higher standard based on what PBF SAYS about himself...
And please dissect this post as 100% proof of the double standard in effect:
Substitute the name "Juan Manuel Marquez" for "Jose Luis Castillo"...and you are completely describing Pacquiao's current run. Because if Pacquiao was concerned about "taking on the very best" he would've fought Nate Campbell at 135- Not David Diaz, Paul Williams at 147- not a ghostly ODH and Timothy Bradley at 140- Not the one-dimensional Hatton. Hell, he could've fought JMM at 130, 135 or 140...He just opted for the bigger payday against the easier opponent. But where's all the crying and hand-wringing about Pacquiao ducking the very best?
Take that baloney to some hack at Sports Illustrated who wouldn't know a left hook from a meat hook or, better yet, Manny-Pacquiao.com |
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It is pretty insane to question Manny's resume when he has wins over 3 surefire HOFers.
The Diaz fight was a tuneup.Nothing else.And it came just after he had fought JMM at 130 for the lineal title.
Manny had no business at 147 and would never have fought there if not for the huge payday DLH offered.And he has no plans to go back.And let's not forget, most people thought that Manny was getting blasted out early in that fight.It's easy to say that DLH was weight drained and a shell of his former self.But don't act like this was common knowledge when the fight was first signed.
And at 140,Hatton was the man to beat and the recognized lineal champ.If he had fought Bradley instead people would be saying he ducked Hatton.
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Paul Magno
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Karma: 37 | | Re: Money May vs Kenny
« Reply #5 on May 22, 2009, 3:37am » | |
May 22, 2009, 1:49am, punchdrunk wrote:
May 22, 2009, 12:31am, Paul Magno wrote:Was that post from the Pac-land message board?
Listen...First, it doesn't matter what a fighter SAYS about himself. That shouldn't even be taken into consideration since the writer of that post is insinuating that Mayweather be held to a higher standard based on what PBF SAYS about himself...
And please dissect this post as 100% proof of the double standard in effect:
Substitute the name "Juan Manuel Marquez" for "Jose Luis Castillo"...and you are completely describing Pacquiao's current run. Because if Pacquiao was concerned about "taking on the very best" he would've fought Nate Campbell at 135- Not David Diaz, Paul Williams at 147- not a ghostly ODH and Timothy Bradley at 140- Not the one-dimensional Hatton. Hell, he could've fought JMM at 130, 135 or 140...He just opted for the bigger payday against the easier opponent. But where's all the crying and hand-wringing about Pacquiao ducking the very best?
Take that baloney to some hack at Sports Illustrated who wouldn't know a left hook from a meat hook or, better yet, Manny-Pacquiao.com |
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It is pretty insane to question Manny's resume when he has wins over 3 surefire HOFers.
The Diaz fight was a tuneup.Nothing else.And it came just after he had fought JMM at 130 for the lineal title.
Manny had no business at 147 and would never have fought there if not for the huge payday DLH offered.And he has no plans to go back.And let's not forget, most people thought that Manny was getting blasted out early in that fight.It's easy to say that DLH was weight drained and a shell of his former self.But don't act like this was common knowledge when the fight was first signed.
And at 140,Hatton was the man to beat and the recognized lineal champ.If he had fought Bradley instead people would be saying he ducked Hatton. |
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Nobody is questioning Pacquiao's resume (although IMO he never really beat Marquez and the 2nd fight vs. Barrera and 3rd fight vs. Morales are not undeniable proof of his greatness). But lets keep this to recent history...
Now, in your defense of Pacquiao, just substitute Mayweather's name for Manny's and everything fits in nicely...
I remember Mayweather getting berated by the haters for "only" fighter Corley, Brusseles and Gatti at 140; Manny has no intention of fighting any of the Top 10 guys at 140 after Hatton.
Mayweather got torn to pieces for "only" fighting Mitchell, Hatton, Lineal Champ Baldomir and the consensus #2 guy in Zab Judah at 147: Manny has no intention of fighting any of the top Welterweights...unless they dry themselves out similar to ODH...
Mayweather's step up to 154 was against a motivated and, by the way, reigning world champ in Oscar De la Hoya, but that sucked in the eyes of the haters...beating a ghostly De la Hoya at a dry as f**k 145 was a lot more impressive...
The nut-hugging on Pacquiao is insane, but combine that with the hating on Mayweather and you have something truly retarded...
One of my favorites: The Pacquiao people bring up that he started at Flyweight as proof of his greatness and then when someone brings up that he was knocked out at those lighter weights, they'll turn around and say, "well, he was just a kid...those Flyweight fights mean nothing..."
Let's get real...
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punchdrunk
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Karma: 6 | | Re: Money May vs Kenny
« Reply #6 on May 22, 2009, 3:48am » | |
Manny never planned on staying at 147.It was only for DLH.It was more of a catchweight fight than anything else.You can't accuse him of ducking anyone there.
Even I don't criticize PBF for ducking anyone at 154 after he beat DLH.
True Manny could have fought much better opposition than Diaz.But he was in only one fight there and his previous fight was with Juan Manuel Marquez in what was one of the best fights of the year.
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Paul Magno
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Karma: 37 | | Re: Money May vs Kenny
« Reply #7 on May 22, 2009, 4:06am » | |
May 22, 2009, 3:48am, punchdrunk wrote:Manny never planned on staying at 147.It was only for DLH.It was more of a catchweight fight than anything else.You can't accuse him of ducking anyone there.
Even I don't criticize PBF for ducking anyone at 154 after he beat DLH.
True Manny could have fought much better opposition than Diaz.But he was in only one fight there and his previous fight was with Juan Manuel Marquez in what was one of the best fights of the year. |
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Well, please explain what Pacquiao's career plan is, then? Because, from the looks of things, he seems more than content to cherry-pick from 135 to 147, making outrageous physical demands of any fighter who would be a physical threat to his well-being...Pacquiao's modus operandi since getting scared straight in the JMM fight makes Mayweather's most recent fight selection look like the career path of Jake Lamotta...
Pacquiao is setting things up and stacking things in his favor to an extent that Mayweather never did...To say otherwise is just to be blind.
I would rather have someone not fight Cotto or Mosley than try to genetically engineer fights by forcing the larger fighters to dry out and fight at 60-70% capacity.
If Mayweather catches flack, Pacquiao deserves just as much, if not more...
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punchdrunk
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Karma: 6 | | Re: Money May vs Kenny
« Reply #8 on May 22, 2009, 4:31am » | |
So in other words,you are critiquing Manny for not fighting Mosley or Cotto when you have yet to do the same to PBF.
That seems fair.No double standard at all.
A guy who has fought 2 fighters moving up from 140 and one coming from 135 out his 5 fights scheduled at 147 is OK.
A guy who fought one fight there (and only for the payday include) and weighed all of 142lbs is clearly not.
Forget the fact that Manny had fought in 3 different divisions in his last 3 fights.Something you were in love with Paul Williams for when he was beating the murderer's row of Kolle,Quintana and Philips.
No double standard at all.
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Paul Magno
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Karma: 37 | | Re: Money May vs Kenny
« Reply #9 on May 22, 2009, 4:57am » | |
May 22, 2009, 4:31am, punchdrunk wrote:So in other words,you are critiquing Manny for not fighting Mosley or Cotto when you have yet to do the same to PBF.
That seems fair.No double standard at all.
A guy who has fought 2 fighters moving up from 140 and one coming from 135 out his 5 fights scheduled at 147 is OK.
A guy who fought one fight there (and only for the payday include) and weighed all of 142lbs is clearly not.
Forget the fact that Manny had fought in 3 different in his last 3 fights.Something you were in love with Paul Williams for when he was beating the murderer's row of Kolle,Quintana and Philips.
No double standard at all. |
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1) I'm not criticizing Manny for not fighting Cotto or Mosley...I AM criticizing him for only wanting gentetically engineered fights with them at unnaturally small weights. Either fight them or not...They are Welterweights and if you want full credit for being a warrior, take them on at their natural weights or stay at 140 or below...
2) Hatton and Marquez were/are world champs moving up in weight to fight at 147. Mitchell held a regional belt at 147 and he was Mayweather's way of testing the water at 147...JMM is a tune up for a bigger fight after a 19 month lay-off. I think its a helluva lot more dishonest to just cherry-pick through 3 weight classes like Pacquiao's doing when you are allegedly at the top of your game and at the top of the p4p lists.
We now have Manny blowing through 3 straight weight classes where he has not fought the best in any of those divisions...Hatton may have been lineal champ, but he wasn't the best at 140...ODH hadn't fought at 147 in ages and Diaz wasn't even in the top 8 at 135...
3) Paul Williams is more than willing to fight the best at 3 weight classes and if he got a shot at Cotto, Pavlik and whoever is tops at 154 he would take it and wouldn't go the Pacquiao route. Manny, with the weight his name carries could've fought anyone at 135-147, Williams can't make those demands...
And I think Quintana, Phillips and Wright are a helluva lot tougher path than Diaz, Auschwitz Oscar De la Hoya and Ricky "Chin held high" Hatton...
Let's face it...Manny has been a professional prize fighter looking to make the biggest buck for the least amount of risk...just like every other fighter in the sport. Mayweather is not some sort of punk or coward, just a prize fighter on the same page as Manny Pacquiao...
Actually, when you look at it...Manny and Floyd are almost identical in their career paths as much smaller fighters moving up in weight...Except Floyd has been much more honest about the way he conducts his professional life...
A huge Double Standard exists...it's the truth. Manny is doing everything that Mayweather got accused of doing...but Manny's being called a hero and an ATG...While PBF is seen as a fraud...Two Peas in a Pod...
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punchdrunk
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Karma: 6 | | Re: Money May vs Kenny
« Reply #10 on May 22, 2009, 6:28am » | |
First of all , if you read all your posts it seems like you seem ready to deride Manny for what you think he will do in the future.So i guess it's your crystal ball vs. what is already recorded in the books with PBF.Anyways.......
1-It doesn't seem any worse to me than having 2 guys move up in weight.Marquez is unproven at 140 let alone 147 or 144 or wherever the hell the fight ends up being at.Hatton went life and death with Colazo and barely won at 147 before immediately dropping back down to 140.
2-The Diaz win was no worse than Pbf's win over Mitchell.Manny was moving up in weight and took on a weak titlist.PBF moved up in weight and took on another guy moving up in weight.You could even argue that PBF's win over Gatti was about equal to Manny's win over Diaz.
And there is a huge difference between Manny hoping divisions in consecutive fights and not facing the best and PBF campaigning in multiple divisions and not fighting the best.And let's not forget this is still based on you seeing Manny not taking on the best in the future as opposed to PBF not doing it in the past.
3-I don't want to start shitting on Williams because I have nothing bad to say about him.My point is when he was doing the same thing Manny is doing, you were rocking the bandwagon.This was before Winky but Manny's win over Hatton trumps it.Moving up in weight to take on the legit champ there or facing a aging vet coming off a long layoff .Based on the BTBC's own ranking's Wright wasn't even ranked at 160 due to inactivity.His last fight at 160 was over 2 years ago.Forget that Williams is a giant welter and even moving up in weight was the much bigger guy in all of those fights.But Manny does it and he is just cherry picking.The guy jumps up to 135 for a tuneup then wins the DLH lottery,takes it with most picking an easy night for DLH and then drops down to 140 to take on the LINEAL and Ring champ.Sound a lot like the Baldomir win?Journeyman Cinderella or established champ with only 1 loss to the consensus all-time P4P #1 PBF in a weight division he had no business in?You know on second thought,Manny's win over Hatton is better than PBF's over Baldomir as well.
And the craziest thing to me is you say that "Manny has been a professional prize fighter looking to make the biggest buck for the least amount of risk".Where do you get that from?Was it when Manny took on the lineal champ at 112 13 days shy of his 20th birthday?Maybe it was from when he took on Ledwaba on 2 weeks notice?No?Then it must have been when Manny jumped up to 126 as a big underdog against P4P and Ring champ Barrera.Was it when he jumped up to 130 and fought Morales?Or how about when he fought JMM?The same JMM who was ducked by Morales,Barrera and Hamed.Was it that?Because he did it at 126 and 130.It must be that.Still No?I got it.It was when he fought DLH.It fits all of your criteria.Big reward and low risk.Everyone knew DLH would be weight drained and Manny would be too fast and sturdy at welterweight .That's why almost everyone was picking DLH and calling this a circus mismatch.
Hell,even if you are right and Manny and PBF are just "Two Peas in a Pod", it shows a horrible double standard.You have sh*t on Manny more in a couple of months than you have PBF the whole time I have known you.I have yet to see you do anything but come to PBF's aid when someone dare's to say anything negative about him.But let's pick apart Manny.No double standard there.
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Paul Magno
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Karma: 37 | | Re: Money May vs Kenny
« Reply #11 on May 22, 2009, 7:15am » | |
Punch, I think you've been drinking...'cause you seem to be arguing with me yet you're making all my points and confirming my overall thesis...
Token lineal champs, tune-up/trial balloon fights at new weights, celebrity boxing bouts for mega paychecks...Mayweather and Hatton are both equally guilty of that stuff (if one need be guilty of being a smart businessman)...My point is that Pacquiao is being applauded while doing the same stuff that Mayweather was jeered for...
I'm talking about Pacquiao's career as he rose in weight, above what was thought to be his ideal fighting weight previously...Before that, both he and Mayweather were beyond reproach...
There's no way you can defend Pacquiao for the way he's conducted the last year of his career, at the height of his popularity and physical skill. If you do defend it, then you no longer have the right to be critical of anything Mayweather's done at 147.
Can't you see the insanity of justifying a slaughter of a very weak David Diaz as a "tune up" yet being mega-critical of Mayweather fighting a tune-up against JMM, the consensus P4P #2 fighter in the world...regardless of him being a Lightweight?
And I'd still like to know how beating ODH and Hatton made Mayweather a fraud yet beating weaker versions of ODH and Hatton make Manny a hero? Insane logic...We may not have known that ODH would come in to the Pacquiao fight shot and drained, but he WAS...and that was due to Pacquiao's desire to genetically engineer a fight at an unnatural weight for ODH...Smart move for Manny, just as smart as Floyd convincing JMM to move up in weight...But everyone knows that its much more devastating for a fighter to fight UNDER his ideal weight than OVER his ideal weight. Pacquiao is being even more manipulative and cautious than anyone ever accused Mayweather of being by insinuating that guys like Cotto and Mosley need to get down to artificially light weights. THAT'S not the work of someone who wants to fight the very best...That's the work of someone who wants to put an opponent at a major disadvantage then bask in the glow of a glorious victory when he wins. Not heroic.
My entire point is that if two fighters do the same thing, then they deserve the same acclaim or criticism...No Double Standard- even if you hate one of them.
And one more thing that is so cliché:
When people say that Hatton sucked as a Welterweight and that's why he moved back down to 140.
OK...Hatton may have had a "life and death" struggle with Luis Collazo at 147, but he did score a legit win against an undoubtably world class Collazo. This puts Hatton a notch above Collazo at 147...pretty damn good.
And when it comes to Williams, again, you're missing the point...The point is that Pacquiao can call out anyone he wants and he could've called out anyone at 135...He chose David Diaz! Williams, if he were in the same position to call the shots, would've probably fought Margarito, Mosley and Pavlik in his last 3.
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punchdrunk
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Karma: 6 | | Re: Money May vs Kenny
« Reply #12 on May 22, 2009, 8:56am » | |
It's seems you want make this about Manny's last year vs PBF's entire career.I'll concede defeat if those are the parameters.Otherwise the only thing PBF has in common with Manny is the fact they both fought Hatton, DLH and (soon) Marquez.
Pacquaio has yet to even settle in any weight division and yet he is ducking everybody?PBF stayed at 140 and 147 multiple fights.By your standards PBF should be accused of ducking everyone at 154 also.He did fight there once after all.But he never ducked anyone.Double standard?
I've got no problem with PBF taking a tuneup with JMM.As long as if he wins it is seen as just a tuneup like Diaz.No better.But all the PBF fans will be screaming about how their guy just beat the P4P #2 guy and a guy who arguably had beaten Manny with no mention of the fact that JMM had to leapfrog 140 to get the fight.
And the Diaz win is just as impressive as PBF's win at 140 against Gatti.Except Manny went to Diaz in his first fight at 135 instead of fighting 2 tuneups before taking what was still a tuneup vs Gatti.And then PBF left.Doesn't matter that he never fought any of the top guys at 140, does it?Shit,Manny's win over Hatton is better than anything PBF did at 140.Double standard?
Or should Manny fight Paulie Malinaggi next?That would be the same thing PBF did at 147.Beat the man and then the guy who was the man.You did have Paulie ranked #1 before Hatton beat him,right?But you dropped Hatton due to inactivity.So when PBF beat Hatton at 147,Hatton would have to be unranked at 147 using your criteria since it was 19 months after the Collazo win.Besides, what in the Collazo fight told you that Hatton would be able to do anything to PBF?Was it Hatton barely winning or nearly getting knocked out?Because I'm sure that's what PBF saw.How heroic.
"and that was due to Pacquiao's desire to genetically engineer a fight at an unnatural weight for ODH".That sh*t made me laugh.Like anyone could dictate terms to DLH.And if DLH did agree to that it was just to get Manny in the ring so he could get what most everyone thought would be an easy win over the #1 P4P fighter.Should Manny have to jump up to 154 from 135?Why not just leapfrog 140 and 147,right?Is that more fair than asking DLH to come down 7lbs?
You want to get on Manny for fighting Diaz after JMM?OK.So Manny fought Diaz and DLH between the JMM and Hatton fights.Just remember how many tuneups PBF has had over the years between his "big fights".Sandwiched between Castillo and Judah/Baldomir were nothing but tuneups.The best fighter he faced in that time was Gatti.And he fought at 135,140 and 147 in that time.And that lasted 4 years.Double standard?
There is no such gap in Manny's career since he hit elite status unlike PBF.As a matter of fact,at the very same time PBF was calling $2.5 million a fight slave wages for fighting the likes of Phillip N'dou,Chop Chop Corley and Henry Brusseles, Manny was competing at 122,126 and 130 against the likes of Barrera,Marquez and Morales.
The closest Manny comes to such a gap is between the 2nd Morales fight and 2nd Marquez fight.In that time Manny fought Larios,Morales a 3rd time,Solis and Barrera a 2nd time.But he got all those out of the way in 2 years.
You want to discount the lineal and Ring champ ideas but I don't know why.That is the only thing that gives any kind of merit to PBF's stay at 147 where his claim to fame is beating a journeyman without them.Or was his best win against the guy coming off a loss the the previously mentioned journeyman?
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Paul Magno
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Karma: 37 | | Re: Money May vs Kenny
« Reply #14 on May 22, 2009, 1:46pm » | |
Again, you're making my point for me and the deeper you dig in to your point, the more it supports mine...
I'm talking about both fighters' recent careers...Manny for the last year and Mayweather for the year before he became inactive...
Same career path, same modus operandi...And I'm not being a critic of either. It's smart business to carefully match yourself up when you're fighting at an artificially high weight...And it's smart business to make the calls and try to set up things in your favor...
Just don't be a hypocrite and call one a fraud and the other a legend for doing the same things...
It seems that every justified remark on Pacquiao's cautious recent dealings brings out a passionate cry of, "What about when he fought Barrera!" Lets not make this about great conquests of 2003, lets talk in the here and now. And, honestly, comparing the last 3 opponents of both Manny and Floyd, what's the difference? Actually, in all honesty, the edge goes to Mayweather in that category...
Get the machismo out of your brain and realize that Boxing is a business...Pacquiao obviously knows that...
When the dust settles on both careers, it will be painfully obvious that Mayweather will have accomplished more than Manny at 135, 140 and 147..So, that will either make Mayweather a hero for being so far ahead of Manny or it will make Manny a collosal fraud since the Mayweather haters always like to dismiss everything PBF has done at those weights...But please don't try to insult a real knowledgeable fan's intelligence by painting Manny as a super hero because of what he's done since he's moved up from 130...
Two peas in a pod, Manny and Money....
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